Poor Margaret! Would I be wrong to think that Edmund might have restrained himself, even in those days? Horrific. On the bright side: I'm in the US and very much looking forward to reading your book over the next week or so.
Lovely to read this extract , I am about to buy the book . Would you think that even by the standards of the fifteenth century a birth to such a young mother would have seemed inappropriate ?
It is evident that you all are much more knowledgeable than i am but i thought that it was not uncommon for girls to be married off extremely early…like even age 11 & 12, or maybe at least after they began menstruating. Is that incorrect?
The evidence suggests it is incorrect yes. For the average person, women generally didn't leave the family home until in their early 20s in many cases as it was expensive to raise dowries and they were valuable labour. For the nobility and royal ranks, marriages arranged for the girls whilst children were routine for political reasons, and the church officially permitted marriage from the age of 12. HOWEVER - it simply is not the case that these married girls were engaging in sexual relations at that age. They are no different anatomically than girls that age today, that is to say, children. We can consider how Henry VII and Elizabeth of York and Margaret Beaufort herself refused to allow their daughter Margaret Tudor travel to Scotland when she was 12 years old after her marriage to the King of Scots.
Does that tell us about the sort of man that Edmund was I wonder ? Were there any possible mitigating circumstances for such an apparent violation ? Surely , had he lived, he would not have been an acceptable member of society . I cannot think of any child who underwent the ordeal of Margaret Beaufort at that time , unless possibly in wider social circumstances . Surprising that either of them survived .
Yes, if he had a baby with the wealthy heiress, he would receive for life control of her properties. It would strike me to be simple greed. I wonder if, at a time of developing dynastic conflict, there was also pressure from above to father an alternative Lancastrian line.
As her father had died years before , she was obviously an heiress of great standing . Would the pressure from above be by way of the Tudor or Neaufort Line ? Who was in a sufficiently superior position to orchestrate that marriage ? Jasper would not be a likely candidate , despite wielding much influence . Surely he could have married her himself ?
I'm lucky enough to have visited Pembroke Castle and it's such an evocative place. I'm slightly disappointed the Henry VII probably wasn't born in that tower. It fits the 'romantic' narrative of a young girl fleeing from uncertainty and plague, giving birth in a makeshift but secure place. I don't think it's a coincidence that you used nativity in that passage. Thank you Nathen. Very informative as always.
Poor Margaret! Would I be wrong to think that Edmund might have restrained himself, even in those days? Horrific. On the bright side: I'm in the US and very much looking forward to reading your book over the next week or so.
A widow and mother at thirteen?! At thirteen, I couldn’t manage to floss between my braces successfully…
Lovely to read this extract , I am about to buy the book . Would you think that even by the standards of the fifteenth century a birth to such a young mother would have seemed inappropriate ?
Absolutely - it wasn't the norm, whatsoever.
It is evident that you all are much more knowledgeable than i am but i thought that it was not uncommon for girls to be married off extremely early…like even age 11 & 12, or maybe at least after they began menstruating. Is that incorrect?
The evidence suggests it is incorrect yes. For the average person, women generally didn't leave the family home until in their early 20s in many cases as it was expensive to raise dowries and they were valuable labour. For the nobility and royal ranks, marriages arranged for the girls whilst children were routine for political reasons, and the church officially permitted marriage from the age of 12. HOWEVER - it simply is not the case that these married girls were engaging in sexual relations at that age. They are no different anatomically than girls that age today, that is to say, children. We can consider how Henry VII and Elizabeth of York and Margaret Beaufort herself refused to allow their daughter Margaret Tudor travel to Scotland when she was 12 years old after her marriage to the King of Scots.
Does that tell us about the sort of man that Edmund was I wonder ? Were there any possible mitigating circumstances for such an apparent violation ? Surely , had he lived, he would not have been an acceptable member of society . I cannot think of any child who underwent the ordeal of Margaret Beaufort at that time , unless possibly in wider social circumstances . Surprising that either of them survived .
Yes, if he had a baby with the wealthy heiress, he would receive for life control of her properties. It would strike me to be simple greed. I wonder if, at a time of developing dynastic conflict, there was also pressure from above to father an alternative Lancastrian line.
As her father had died years before , she was obviously an heiress of great standing . Would the pressure from above be by way of the Tudor or Neaufort Line ? Who was in a sufficiently superior position to orchestrate that marriage ? Jasper would not be a likely candidate , despite wielding much influence . Surely he could have married her himself ?
Love seeing Margaret get her due more and more! This was wonderfully done.
I'm lucky enough to have visited Pembroke Castle and it's such an evocative place. I'm slightly disappointed the Henry VII probably wasn't born in that tower. It fits the 'romantic' narrative of a young girl fleeing from uncertainty and plague, giving birth in a makeshift but secure place. I don't think it's a coincidence that you used nativity in that passage. Thank you Nathen. Very informative as always.
Great article Nathen. As always. It’s always nice to read excerpts from ‘Son of Prophecy’.
Great work as always Nathen. I have visited Tenby & Pembroke and used Tudor Wals as a guide! Cheers 🏴